Back pain and chiropractors

As a physical therapist, and one who took McKenzie’s courses when they were taught by McKenzie, I feel qualified to dispute this claim.  Not that I’m against fostering self-care; I think this is absolutely essential if we health care professionals are to provide the best treatment.  What I dispute is that McKenzie is “an effective alternative to traditional chiropractor treatment”.  Let us dismiss consideration of the unethical chiropractors who simply crack backs and omit any self-care training. Mercifully, they are slowly losing favor among their own colleagues.  But good, complete chiropractic care will include, besides manipulation, instruction in appropriate exercise – which could be the McKenzie extension bias and instruction in modification of movement habits.  Good physical therapy should include this too – although all too often we physical therapists prefer the efficiency and revenue produced by grinding out patients on the passive modalities, e.g. hot packs, ultrasound, traction – the equivalent of the chiropractor’s manipulation (except that recent reports indicate that manipulation is more effective that other treatments in acute low back pain) and dispensing with the more time consuming functional training.

McKenzie was to spine rehabilitation what Freud was to psychology or Beethoven to music: they introduced ideas which, at the time, were considered bizarre but reformed the way we think about the subject. McKenzie took us away from the Williams Flexion era where all low back patients were taught to do full pelvic tilts and spend their time pulling their knees to their chests.  He showed that restoring the normal inward curve of the lumbar spine (extension) decreased symptoms associated with excessive flexion associated with sitting and bending.  His extension exercises remail very useful in the treatment of acute low back pain. Further, he put a strong emphasis on correction body mechanics.  However like Freud and, as some, but not I, would say, Beethoven, he went too far.  He teaches extension as a cure-nearly-all and if extension doesn’t work for you then you need to do mega-flexion.  In truth, excessive, repetitive extension can result in microtrauma and avoidable degeneration of the spine.  In my opinion, extension exercises should not be part on a spine patients ongoing, long term routine. Elimination the current pain – where McKenzie shows 80% success – is not the major battle.  Avoiding joining the 60% who have another episode of severe pain within 2 years – the usual rate with back pain in general, is the sign of success.  I feel that only with implementation of a neutral spine position stabilization program – with a strong emphasis on learning to maintain neutral spine position in daily activities is one likely to have success in the long term.

 

Hans Better Stick With Dentistry

“Pediatric chiropractic care is often inconsistent with recommended medical guidelines,” writes a team of researchers led by Dr. Kathi J. Kemper of the Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts. The researchers base their conclusions on surveys from 90 doctors of chiropractic (DCs) in the Boston area. Chiropractic usually involves manipulating the spine and other joints to relieve pain and promote general health. But Kemper and colleagues report that for kids, treatment may be directed at specific illness. “Although most adults (85%) consult DCs for musculoskeletal conditions, children frequently visit DCs for respiratory problems, ear, nose and throat problems, and general preventive care,” report Kemper and her team.

The results of the survey indicated that 11% of chiropractic visits were for children and adolescents, and 79% of chiropractors said they modified their techniques for these young patients. But the authors also note that only 30% of chiropractors said they actively recommended that children receive standard immunizations, while 7% recommended against them.

Even more alarming is the fact that when asked what they would do if presented with a 2-week-old infant with a fever over 101 degrees Fahrenheit (38.4 C), 17% of the chiropractors surveyed said they would perform a spinal adjustment. Only about two-thirds said they would refer the baby to a medical doctor immediately. “These issues raise great concern as more and more children and families seek chiropractic care, particularly if the care is not coordinated with a pediatrician,” conclude the researchers in the April issue of the Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine. Potential concerns include complications due to spinal manipulation, delay of appropriate medical treatment when needed, and failure to promote childhood immunizations. Kemper and colleagues call for more research to “address the safety and effectiveness of chiropractic care” for children.

 

What do you go to chiropractors for?

A number of people have provided testimonials for the efficacy of their chiropractors, and I’d like to ask them what conditions they have which are being treated successfully by chiropractic, and what treatments are employed.

I feel most comfortable with a traditional medical approach, because it’s grounded in the scientific method.  That is, the underlying philosophy seems sound to me, although any individual practitioner will undoubtedly fall short in one way or another–hopefully in some unimportant way!   Although I try to keep my steel-trap mind open, I really *am* suspicious of practitioners of a treatment philosophy invented by a farmer from Iowa which indicates that vertebral “subluxation” is the cause of all ill health. And, for those chiropractors who disavow such an approach, it’s unclear to me what they replace it with.

I’m not trying to get into another yin/yang argument between traditional and non-traditional healing professions.  Rather, I would really like to hear from people who have had success from chiropractic.  Please tell us what your problems were, how they were helped, and what the chiropractor did.

 Most chiropractors are honest, well trained healers, practicing a method that is proven to provide relief, and is *SOME* cases has produced what at least appear to be “cures”.  Unfortunately, there are quacks in every sector of the health care field.  The AMA just *LOVES* to publicize the occasional quack chiropractor too bad they don’t put as much energy into publicizing their own quacks when discovered.

   Modern chiropractic is not for everyone.  If you have a backache, or a neck ache, or leg pains, and your MD can’t do anything but provide you with mind-dulling drugs that provide only minimal and temporary relief, then you should consider seeing a chiropractor.  They *MAY* be able to help.

   Don’t fall victim to the money-grubbing power politics of the AMA. Check the facts for yourself.  Remember that the AMA is the organization that owns millions of $$$ in tobacco stock, and refused to support the Surgeon General’s warnings on cigarette packages.  According to studies I have seen, the official AMA postions seldom represent the opinions of the member MDs.  Often, according to these studies, they represent as few as 5-10% of the membership.

   Doctors are human beings, not gods.  Western medical “science” has no valid claim to being the only correct or effective means of achieving health care.  When I need an MD, I see one.  When I need a chripractor, I see one.

 

 

A Question about Chiropractors

I’ve noticed how many of you go to chiropractors. I’ve got one question. How the _ell do you tolerate anyone pushing on your body?? I’d be afraid to even walk in a chiropractor’s door. I have a lot of spots on my body that *I* try to avoid putting any pressure on. I don’t think there’s ANY place on my body that I can tolerate any prolonged pressure on. I always have to move one of my cats off me. Especially if they’re standing on me.

I’m always trying to grin and bear it, but having to limit the “loving” my kitties want to give me kinda upsets me. How do you guys tolerate the chiropractor? I’m so tired of this non-stop pain. (And I have some Darvon but I try to use it as little as possible. I’m afraid that, if I use it too often, the doc might decide to refuse to give me any more, at all.)

There are many types of chiropractic and a good chiro will not do things to cause you pain and will explain everything. I, myself, would never go to a “bone-cracker” type chiro. I will give you a link to the method that my chiro uses (very gentle) and know that there are links to Upledger and Bowen which are only two others of many types.

Click Positional Release Therapy section. This works for me sometimes long-lasting and sometimes I need several treatments, depending on the problem. I do feel better after every treatment (when I could afford them). If you look around your area and interview the chiro, you may find someone who suits you(probably in Nashville). It is like the difference between Swedish massage and a lighter massage.

 

 

Pellegrino

Soda and carbonated water from fountains like in restaurants are carbonated with CO2; we had a big canister of it in back which hooked right up to the machine.  And yes, it is of course ridiculous that CO2 is a deadly poison, considering the amount in the air all the time.  Any author who confuses that with CO, I would probably not listen to anyway.  I can’t speak as to the carbonation causing loss of bone density, or if it is phosphoric acid in canned soda. It seems to me that if the phosphoric acid is used in the process but does not remain as an ingredient, than they would not have to list it, but then it wouldn’t have a significant effect anyway. No disrespect to chiropractors, but they don’t have medical training sufficient to be writing diet books.

Actually, that is not true.  Chiropractors go through several years of medical training, just like doctors do.  Of course the training is different but there are many overlaps.  Chiros actually get more classroom hours in physiology.  And definately more in nutrition.  MD’s get so few hours of nutrition it’s pathetic.  Besides…my chiropractor is a licenced nutritionist.

Various

PLACEBO EFFECT
It seems to me that some skeptics may be too cynical about this, and say things like “It can’t cure a broken leg” and “It’ll make you THINK your cold was cured more quickly but it really wasn’t” and finally “The placebo effect works only for psychosomatic ailments, not real ones.”

Are these assertions really true?  My understanding had been that a positive attitude can enhance the immune system and cause the brain to release appropriate chemicals/hormones or whatever, and thereby legitimately and physically speed the healing/curing process (and that the effect is evidenced in about 30% of patients under controlled tests).  If that’s true, then the placebo effect can indeed assist in recovery from a broken leg, relieve symptoms of a cold and perhaps speed recovery from it, and it would indeed apply to physical as well as psychosomatic ailments.  Much like evolution, I had thought that the FACT of the placebo is well documented in virtually any situation, though the mechanism is not well understood.  This is why I often hold my skeptical tongue when a friend is using homeopathy or acupuncture for a non-serious illness which has no assured conventional treatment (like a cold).  (Also: is there anything to the anecdotal reports (and alleged studies) of animals responding positively to placebos, or for that matter to homeopathy/acupuncture etc.?  This I find hard to swallow.)

CHIROPRACTIC
We all know that under the original definition chiropractic is nonsense. That is, the notion that just about any ailment can be cured through spinal manipulation is utter hogwash.  But that isn’t what many chiropractors do today.  Many are MD’s who undertake conventional diagnostic techniques (X-ray, etc.) and then determine whether or not the ailment might reasonably respond to manipulation of the injured area itself.  In other words, it’s no different from physical therapy.  Perhaps a lot of otherwise mainstream physical therapists increasingly call themselves chiropractors simply because there’s a market demand for it, but are otherwise providing conventional medical care.  (This especially so since all 50 states, wisely or not, now require insurers to treat chiropractic as a conventional treatment in their consideration of claims.)  Though I’ve never been to a chiropractor, numerous acquaintances have and are often turned down if the chiropractor deems chiropractic inappropriate for the case at hand.  Any comments?

HYPNOSIS
Is it a real phenomenon on some level?  Or is it just deeply concentrating on the matter at hand, as we might while listening to a symphony or acting in a theatrical role?  If there’s really nothing to it, then why has it apparently had such effect in things like quitting smoking?  Is it true that a person can be “hypnotized” to believe his left arm is very cold and his right arm very hot and we can watch as goose bumps rise on his left arm while sweat drips down from his right?  Is there really such a thing as a “post-hypnotic suggestion?”  In view of the fact that even the skeptical literature is not unanimous on this issue, wouldn’t it be a simple matter to test for what hypnosis really is or isn’t?

This (and the placebo) reminds me of a non-scientific experiment in Japan I recently read about.  Thirteen men who were highly allergic to poison ivy were told that a poison ivy leaf would be rubbed on their right arm, and a harmless leaf on their left arm.  But the test people secretly switched leaves.  Sure enough, something like 8 of them got a poison ivy rash only on the arm they THOUGHT was infected (but wasn’t), and most got no infection on the arm that WAS infected, or something like that.  Okay, it probably wasn’t double-blind, and it may all be a lie, but shouldn’t someone look into this stuff more deeply?

 

Trauma?

Chiropractors do not treat or “cure” disease.  If you’ve paid any attention to any of my posts you would understand that.  The chiropractor in your family surely must be aware that vertebral subluxation can play a significant role in seizures.  That is what he hopefully learned in school.
Chiropractors allow the body to function at its maximum level.  The nervous system controls every function in the human body. Chiropractors ensure that the nervous system is working without interference.  Period. No one can dispute the fact that many people with seizures or epileptics have seen their health improve through competent chiropractic care.

Chiropractors allow the body to function at its maximum level.  The nervous system controls every function in the human body.   When organs are transplanted, the surgeons don’t connect the donor organ to the recipient’s nervous system.  But so long as immune rejection is prevented, the organ functions perfectly in its new environment.

Chiropractors ensure that the nervous system is working without interference. The peripheral nerves you claim to manipulate are the most minor part of the system.  The real magic takes place where you can’t access it with Doctor Palmer’s hamfisted methods.

Scoliosis – The real evidence

Chiropractors claim to be able to diagnose scoliosis in infants and children. They also claim to be able to treat it. What is the real evidence, how many studies have they done, and why are they so off-the-mark? Their self-promotions and attempts to convince school officials that they know what they are doing has really been more of a smoke screen for bad science masquerading as chiropractic care. Where did they learn about scoliosis, in their schools, or at the Singer courses?
A population study of school scoliosis screening – Oct 20, 1999 School scoliosis screening identified some children who went on to receive treatment but referred many more who did not. These data should be considered in making decisions regarding school scoliosis screening.
Of 2242 children, annual scoliosis screening identified 92 children who were referred for further evaluation of possible scoliosis. An additional 328 parents were notified of possible abnormalities. A total of 9 children were treated for scoliosis, 5 (56%) of whom were identified in the school screening program, and 3 were identified prior to the first school screening.

 

Information Needed about Asthma and Chiropractic

Patient-centered diagnosis looks at every aspect of the patient, including exposure to potential air-borm toxins that may be a part of a sick building syndrome. Diagnostic concerns cover such public health issues. We look inside as well as outside of the patient. We look at family as well as personal history. We look for specific patterns and we use environmental medicine, also called clinical ecology. But we never stop there.

You are barking up the wrong tree when you conduct such a limited search for potential causes of colds, asthma and other forms of upper respiratory related problems. You want to identify and profile all causes, not just clinical ecology–sick building syndrome issues that may cause or exacerbate the problem. This is based on a patient-centered diagnostic model and it sounds to me like all you want to do is go after sick building issues. Why do you so limit your area of inquiry? My intake form covers sick building syndrome issues and everything else. We look at immune system status, personal and family histories as well as lab work. Let me know if I can be of any professional assistance to you. In Asthma and a series of colds, we know that there is a serious inflammatory cascade that goes on—we want to know the triggers and mediators of it, sick building syndrome and otherwise. Current Chiropractic has little to do with immunohistochemical reserves, glutathione status, serum antibody titers, cold viruses, white blood cell subsets such as macrophage activity and similar related concerns.

 

Chung Moo: My two cents

Since it seems like everyone is talking about their CMD/CMQ experiences, I would like to put in my two cents.  

I was involved in CMQ for 10 years.  I started at the age of 10 and left at the age of 20.  I began because my parents felt it would improve my self-esteem and self-confidence which it did.  The “fighting” aspect of it was never the primary issue.  CMQ always treated me and my family well and while there were those who payed what I would still consider to be outrageous fees, they never charged anything beyond my financial means.  What I learned from it was perseverance and concentration, two qualities that I still carry with me today.  If I am in anyway a success, I owe at least part of it to CMQ.

Unfortunately, I left CMQ when I realized that there was nothing more for me to learn.  Because I had never had any intention of becoming an instructor, I reached a point where I was not being taught anything new.  Also unfortunate was the fact that people around me were being promoted to black belt or to assistant instructors by merely paying more money in a more advanced course.  While there were some talented individuals, many students were promoted when they should not have been.  They were advancing simply because they were paying more money.

I started with the organization after they had just opened their first schools in the Chicagoland area.  My first instructor for about 5 years was a positive influence in my early life and is someone I still think highly of.  I sadly remember the day when a higher belt came in one day and said that he was no longer associated with the school because he had “met a woman and lost his mind”.  There was no other explanation.  Later, I heard that he tried to open his own school but he was told by various CMQ higher-ups that he should close it down. I do not know what became of him.  My next instructor was also a good person but suddenly was not there one day be he had also “met a woman and lost his mind.”

While I have always been doubtful about the so called “lineage” behind CMQ, I can attest that the art is not without merit.  My father suffered from severe back pain that doctors and chiropractors were unable to cure, but through some simple exercises taught at CMQ, he now no longer suffers.  There was not a magical waving of the master’s hands involved, though I will admit I heard my share of stories about the master’s supernatural powers (e.g., he fought in the Korean War and could catch mortars with his bare hands).  I never believed them, but rather felt that if someone else believed them, that were their problem.  I have also seem some incredible feats of physical endurance and prowess by the instructors, much of which if described would probably not be believed (no, I have not been brainwashed).

Because of my family’s positive experience, we recommended the school to several people we knew.  Those people who lived in the city or near the city of Chicago where constantly being coerced to pay for more expensive courses because “it would make their family life or work life better”.  Many of those people left CMQ angry and bitter and even a bit messed up.  A friend of mine who joined a suburban school had, like me, a good experience that influenced his life in a positive way.   However, there were many around me who seemed quite susceptible to the brainwashing that is often talked about in this newsgroup, but those people, in my opinion, were missing something in their life when they joined.  I had the influence of my father, a strong man, to guild me and never really fell for any of the CMQ propaganda that is talked about.

Like all large organizations (CMQ in its prime in the Chicagoland are must have had a couple of thousand members), there was the good and bad.  I remember some of the instructors that have been discussed in this newsgroup when they were just starting out, and I found them less-than-friendly then.  I am not sure what happened to the organization over time.  I think it became greedy; something that was always there in the beginning to some small extent, but it grew and grew.  I think many people left the school disgruntled, lost, and angry and this may be what has led to what appears to be its eventual downfall.  Many of the odd stories that you hear via Russell Johnson’s posts are indeed true (I know people who have similar experiences to him).  But there are those who were treated well by the organization.

I am indeed saddened by what has happened to the organization.  I think if money did not become more important than the martial art, there would be more people like me who could speak positively about their CMQ experience.  This apparently is not the trend.   To me, CMQ was a mixture of the good and the strange.  I am curious to see what will be the outcome of the trial.